Page 1 of 1

Selfishness as a virtue

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:37 am
by Barney
I appreciate Ayn Rand’s clarity that capitalism turns Christianity on its head, making selfishness and pride into virtues, and compassion and humility into vices. She is very clear that the philosophical heart of capitalism is in direct conflict with Christianity, especially the teachings of Jesus. One must not live for others, but only for one’s self. Of course, her depiction of Christianity is a bit of a caricature. She has to caricature it so that she can put it in direct conflict. Christianity does not teach that one should love others more than oneself, but that one should love others as oneself. This implies that one is already loving oneself. Besides, Augustine pointed out that you can’t love others well if you aren’t already loving yourself. If you don’t take care of your own needs, health, and physical and mental wellbeing, then you won’t be effective at caring for others.

Chesterton said that “to preach egoism is to practice altruism.” It feels fitting for John Galt to give his 60 page speech at the end of the book, and yet it is incongruent with the content of his speech. Why does he bother to give such a speech to the nation? Why not just let them burn?

Re: Selfishness as a virtue

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:00 am
by Ondrej
It is a mistake to assume that Ayn Rand has deep insight into Christianity and is the proper one to judge whether her view of capitalism is for or against her view of Christianity. I drew the opposite conclusion (you mention caricature). She has been stung by those who merely use Christianity and the Bible as a means of authoritative persecution. In other words, as a way of controlling or bullying others to do what they want. If you also have a verse handy that goes along with your desires, you have the perceived authority of God behind you. That is the same way satin tempts Jesus during his 40 day fast. Jesus had to be even more knowledgeable in the scriptures to point out where satin was in error. Is it such a surprise that people would also use the scriptures for their personal ends? I think Ayn Rand’s assessment of Christianity is wrong and stems from the immoral behavior of Christians. In fact, I think that much of her ideas, as outlined in Atlas Shrugged anyway, are very insightful in delineating between good and evil regardless if she lays the blame on Christians for the evil.
making selfishness and pride into virtues
Here, we have to be careful about what we are talking about. Can I ask you for a sum of money and when you refuse, call you selfish? I suppose I can but it has no bearing on the truth. Just because you refuse to give me whatever I request does not make you selfish. It is not what I say, but what God says. If it is your conviction that you should grant my request but instead you refuse, then perhaps it could be judged as selfish but who am I to judge your convictions? What place do I have to call you selfish? If I request of you, and you refuse, and I become angry or dissatisfied in any way it is I who am being selfish. As though I had any claim to your property! I requested out of the goodness of your heart (and you owe me nothing) and I have the gall to take offense if you refuse! What layers of deceptive selfishness is this?

And pride. We must be careful here as well. The word pride is applied everywhere these days. What do we actually mean? There is arrogance; thinking more highly of yourself than you ought. But then there is also “pride” in one’s work. That is something like feeling satisfaction in a job well done. There is nothing at all wrong with that. One ought to aim to perform excellently. Work hard with your hands. Do it as unto the Lord. Take pride in your work. These are the same ideas. It doesn’t mean be arrogant.
compassion and humility into vices
It is not compassion or humility that are pictured as vices. It is the appeal to one’s compassion or humility that are pictured as vices. It is the accusation. If you do not prioritize my cause then you are not compassionate. If you do not cater to my desires you are being proud. These are the instruments of Christianity operating in opposition to God. It is not virtuous to be needy, it is virtuous to provide. But there is this underlying feeling in the ether that it is somehow virtuous to be needy, to request. Atlas could not do many miracles in that place because of their lack of faith. (this is not well specified. There is an idea here. Honor your father and mother. Atlas relies upon people not enslaving him. One does not demand that Christ sacrifice himself and then accuse him of selfishness or pride if we are all damned at his refusal. That is to make Him a slave, or lower. No demand was made of Him. He took the weight of the world upon His shoulders by God’s request. It was between Him and God.)
he is very clear that the philosophical heart of capitalism is in direct conflict with Christianity, especially the teachings of Jesus.
If you trust her assessment of Christianity. I think she does have some good points that can be laid at the feet of Christians. I don’t think this translates to a fault with Christianity. This is like saying that if someone was wrong then there is no truth. It is absurd to think that no fault can be laid at our feet.
One must not live for others, but only for one’s self.
It is not so clear to me that her characters are only living for themselves. At the root of it they are capitalist, they are “making money”, which is to say, they are in every action judging what other people request of them and working themselves to the bone to provide what is desired, making allowances for mistakes and incompetence and cowardice and taking the responsibility upon themselves (which is the judgment if anything goes wrong). They go the extra mile to ensure the person they are working with is satisfied. What they throw off in the end is not another’s request upon them but another’s baseless request upon them. Beyond that even, they throw aside the insistence that another’s baseless request upon them is grounds for judgement.
At the end of the book they retire to a small community to rebuild the world. Are they living for themselves? I guess you will have to clarify what you mean. What they are doing is deciding not to be slaves for other people. They are sacrificing all the amenities of life and starting over from scratch simply to be free of the thieves and ethical bullies. They leave everything they built and still they are selfish because they will not keep the lights on. But why should they be slaves? If they are not willing to be slaves they are selfish? If this is christianity, I want no part of it. I will follow God instead. The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.
Christianity does not teach that one should love others more than oneself, but that one should love others as oneself.
“Don’t be selfish; don’t try to impress others. Be humble, thinking of others as better than yourselves.” (emphasis mine) I think the Bible teaches quite clearly that you should put the consideration of others at least quite prominently. This is why, if you bend over backwards for those you deal with, things go very well for you. This is the idea behind that reprehensible falsehood “the customer is always right”. Considering others and giving the benefit of the doubt and ensuring high quality and delivering on time etc etc these are exactly the things that make a business fruitful. How could it be otherwise? They are straight from the Bible, consider others as more important than yourself. This is how to be fruitful.
If you don’t take care of your own needs, health, and physical and mental wellbeing, then you won’t be effective at caring for others.
Leaving aside “needs” for a moment, who am I to judge what you need? Can a poor starving soul in Africa lay claim to my bank account because he determines I do not need it? Is it right? Is it honorable in any way? Or maybe his judgment that I do not need it is what determines whether I am being selfish? So, my sins are defined by another person’s feelings. They have almost nothing at all to do with me. This, of course is the extreme example, a much more close to home example is a conversation I had with someone at a conference, oddly enough while I was in the middle of reading Atlas Shrugged. He stressed that he NEEDED his glasses to work. And it would be wrong to deny someone a pair of glasses which they need to be able to work. The context, of course, was the extension of socialized provision for those that “need” it (and there is that terrible word again). This is suddenly no longer a starving person but just someone who desires a modern amenity. It is a small thing, just a pair of glasses. Who would deny a pair of glasses? You would, I would, he would. We would all deny a pair of glasses if we were personally responsible for providing all the glasses. But, naturally, no mention was made of him or you or I to personally take such responsibility. Yes, as always, it is the state who should take it upon themselves and free us of our guilty conscience and money. We are absolved of responsibility. You have heard the phrase “with great power comes great responsibility” but this is only because the power has come to the superhero without payment. In the real world it is the other way around, to those who prove capable and take on all the responsibility, to them accrues the power. Of course, this is plain as day. They are the ones fixing all the problems. They are the ones you can rely upon. Who is going to cross them? So, by shirking our responsibility to the state, we thereby cede the power as well and the state becomes our master. Because of our guilty conscience, because we are unwilling to stare the truth in the face, because we want to shy away saying, “I did all I could. It couldn’t be helped.” It is lies! You think you are a good person advocating the state to take the responsibility for caring for others when it is you who cares. The state does not care and they do not value your hard earned money. The state is not a human being. No matter, it is worth it to end your suffering. You don’t want the responsibility and the weight on your conscience.
It feels fitting for John Galt to give his 60 page speech at the end of the book, and yet it is incongruent with the content of his speech. Why does he bother to give such a speech to the nation? Why not just let them burn?
I didn’t read his whole speech. I think Rand was just trying to put it all down more precisely and it was getting long winded. I think I got the gist of it.

Needs: This pesky word. I remember my dad purchasing things and considering “well, do I really need this?”. You don’t need to have fancy things. You can make do with much less. What, in fact, do you need? Perhaps we have all fallen victim to Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. We throw the word around all the time as though it has some significance. Like it is a violation of a physical law to transgress a “need”. No, you do not need glasses. Nor do you need a house or a car or any electronics. You will find that, in fact you do not need water or food or air. You can die. That is fully possible. It happens every day and everything continues on much as usual. I mentioned this to my dad recently and he resoundingly agreed “Yes, you do not need to live”. It is much more freeing to recognize the truth. The question is not “Do I need this?” but rather “How much do I want this? And what other sacrifices do I have to make for its sake?” There is no longer the deception of need sneaking in there, where you convince yourself that you absolutely must have something. No, you do not need anything. You want things. You want to live. And you want to live abundantly. But when you “need” something you are deceiving yourself.

Re: Selfishness as a virtue

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:48 pm
by Barney
Ondrej wrote:Can I ask you for a sum of money and when you refuse, call you selfish? I suppose I can but it has no bearing on the truth. Just because you refuse to give me whatever I request does not make you selfish.
I'm not interested in who is calling who selfish, if selfishness is agreed to be bad. The way I understood Rand, she was questioning that very thing. She was saying, "I'm not so sure selfishness is bad. I think selfishness is good." She even wrote a book called The Virtue of Selfishness: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Virtue_of_Selfishness

Note that there are no freebies in her Utopia of Greed (her words, not mine. It's the title of one of her chapters). Galt doesn't give Dagny a single day sleeping in his house for free. She must pay for it all.

Also this:
Ayn Rand wrote:"Do you understand that it's nothing but vicious self-indulgence on my
part? I'm not doing it for your pleasure, but for mine."
"Hank!" The cry was involuntary; it held amusement, despair, indignation
and pity. "If you'd given me those things just for my pleasure, not yours, I
would have thrown them in your face."
"Yes . . . Yes, then you would—and should."
Her heroes actively reject selfless behaviour. Only selfish behaviour is acceptable. She has turned the word "selfish" into a compliment rather than an insult. Or am I misunderstanding her?
Ondrej wrote:It is not compassion or humility that are pictured as vices. It is the appeal to one’s compassion or humility that are pictured as vices.
I'm not sure that's true. Here is a section from John Galt's speech:
Ayn Rand wrote:Discard the protective rags of that vice which you called a virtue: humility—learn to value yourself, which means: to fight for your happiness—and when you learn that pride is the sum of all virtues, you will learn to live like a man.
Rand is not interested in whether other people call you selfish, proud, humble, compassionate, or anything. She is interested in whether the realities themselves are good or bad. She is saying that humility is bad, selfishness is good. Or am I misunderstanding her?
Ondrej wrote:No, you do not need anything. You want things. You want to live. And you want to live abundantly. But when you “need” something you are deceiving yourself.
So do you think that we should simply never use the word "need" because it can never be truly used? In other words, is it a meaningless word, better taken out of our vocabulary?

Re: Selfishness as a virtue

Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:13 am
by Ondrej
I'm not interested in who is calling who selfish
I am.
Her heroes actively reject selfless behaviour. Only selfish behaviour is acceptable. She has turned the word "selfish" into a compliment rather than an insult. Or am I misunderstanding her?
She is demanding not to be taken advantage of. Not to be robbed. The Christians have instructed her that this is selfish and she has said, so be it, selfishness is virtuous. And she is not wrong. It is right to stand up for yourself. To say what you think. To decide not to enter into a trade if you think it is a bad deal. You are hung up on the words she uses and fail to see the principles behind them.
She is saying that humility is bad, selfishness is good.
To someone who is being bullied, you say stand up for yourself. To someone who abases themselves to others you say have some self respect. Are you instructing them to be proud and selfish... Well apparently Christians think so and they are the ones who know, so yes.

Re: Selfishness as a virtue

Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:58 am
by Barney
If that is what she means, then fair enough. I have no quarrel.